So I'm trying to make an item with composite blending because you need to be able to faintly see through it but it also needs to be double sided because REASONS. anyways. not my first time having this issue and i've looked through forums as much as my brain can handle and the only semi answers I've found are "play with priority!" which is NOT the issue nor the answer OR "it has to me alpha test/you have to adjust threshold!" which..........absolutely defeats the purpose since you can't see through that. it becomes fully opaque that way?????????????? not at all TRANSPARENT???????? /who gives these sorts of answers sob/, Is there any way to solve this? or is it just another one of imvu's "we know; we won't ever solve it despite all reassurances" moments? Really hoping someone can help a desperate soul out. Thanks & here's pics for visual example:
not double sided:
double sided (second in a different room so you can see better how utterly scuffed it is):
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Posted by “Drosselmeyer” on July 26, 2022.
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You are 100% correct and most modern game engines do this, but for transparency this is (can be) an expensive and non-performant calculation and this is the push back I am getting :/ I'll keep pushing though.
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Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 26, 2022.
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Ideally in a perfect Game Engine (world)... The engine could calculate "distance" between objects and the camera. Have the highest priority composite blended materials given to the closest to the camera. Sounds simple but the calculations there my be unachievable, while proficient for this application :/
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Posted by “Drosselmeyer” on July 26, 2022.
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@Yuuasa I think I can help you out here if you are the mesher of the lantern. As has been mentioned you can solve the transparency sorting issue of your product using the 'Transparency Priority' but the mesh will need to be built with 'inner' geometry and 'outer' geometry, each with its own material. It can be a single mesh or two separate meshes and use the same textures, but they must have a different material assigned to each. The material assigned to the 'inner' geometry can have the 'Transparency Priority' left at the default of '0'. The material assigned to the 'outer' geometry should then have the 'Transparency Priority' set to '1' (or higher). What this does for this product is force the materials set to 'Composite Blend' to sort based on the 'Transparency Priority' from lowest to highest. Lower values will draw before higher values. Using 'Double Sided' and 'Composite Blend' will always be problematic because it is a single material and the renderer does not know the order in which to render individual the individual faces. This is the case with the Classic Client, even though Classic does it a bit better.
The issue of various products (furniture, rooms, etc.) with materials using Composite Blend sorting correctly cannot be addressed with 'Priority'. This is because 'Priority' only affects the materials with a single product. I have been told that the default sorting of meshes with 'Composite Blend' is done be bounding volume of the mesh assigned the material. The time this becomes an issue is when you have smaller transparent object (such as your lantern) within a large transparent (such as the clouds in the room @LestatDeLioncourt provided above, 58106903. How to manage transparency sorting between multiple products is a topic for a larger discussion :D
Transparency sorting is an issue I have been bringing up with our engineering team and will continue to do so. I am also trying to gain a better understanding how it is intended to work in our engine and if it really working as intended.
I hope this helps!
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Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 25, 2022.
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Ps> I have not yet tested Priority between two mesh within the same product. Input would be appreciated.
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Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 25, 2022.
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Yes, agreed with all.
Info for those reading... The Priority only works within one project and not between multiple products.
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Posted by “jazzKat” on July 25, 2022.
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Yes, that's why the suggested fixes don't work; it's not the texture that's the issue, it's the multiple layers of transparency the renderer has to contend with when looking through the object. That's why none of the answers were pertinent to your situation while being correct about the core problem overall.
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Posted by “Yuuasa” on July 25, 2022.
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@Jazzkat: the aforementioned tricks don't work because the piece glitching is 1 single texture. there's only 1 texture with any blending on the item. you can't use priority as a work around when it's just 1 texture fighting it's opposite side. (From all the testing I've tried with multiple items anyways + theoretically sound rip.) thanks for the reply
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Posted by “Yuuasa” on July 25, 2022.
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Thanks for the reply Lestat! It certainly does seem to be more glitchy in rooms with blending (the 3rd picture for instance was in a room with curtains that use composite blending.) Guess I will just have to stick to making a one sided version for beta and a double for classic while we wait for IMVU to solve this particular issue lol. Thanks for your help!
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Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 24, 2022.
[Archived]
Dern, I wish we could edit...
"try this Cylinder in a *Room* by an awesome creator Pharmacist. The Room is PID 58106903"
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Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 24, 2022.
[Archived]
I was easily able to reproduce this issue. When PID 60346388; Test Cylinder, comes out of Peer Review... Place this in a room with Composite Blending Background items or some with different lighting (New Platforms or Studio). For one example, try this Cylinder in a by awesome creator Pharmacist. The Room is PID 58106903.
After in a new platform, Spin the camera around and look away from the Building, through the Cylinder. Weird, huh?
I am sure awesome staff like @Drosselmeyer would love to play with this a bit... :D
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about 2 months ago
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Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 24, 2022.
[Archived]
Hey @Yuuasa I know staff are very interested in getting things like this fixed. I know they have made many repairs to the Studio for similar issues. In efforts to gather information and if you feel comfortable...
Save your project as it is and Zip the assets folder. Send the ZIP file to studiobeta@imvu.com with explanation of what rooms (PIDs) make the issue show more than others, etc.
Helping getting a fix for issues like this is important to the whole community.
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Posted by “jazzKat” on July 24, 2022.
[Archived]
Those answers are correct as they all relate to the same core issue at hand no matter the object, transparent surfaces fighting for precedence. Unfortunately the fixes suggested are not universally applicable. In your situation where you're looking directly through layers of transparency none of them will really solve the problem. And yes, this is one of those situations where we have to wait for IMVU to resolve this tricky issue (happens in classic as well but isn't as noticeable due to the different game engine).
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Posted by “Yuuasa” on July 24, 2022.
[Archived]So I'm trying to make an item with composite blending because you need to be able to faintly see through it but it also needs to be double sided because REASONS. anyways. not my first time having this issue and i've looked through forums as much as my brain can handle and the only semi answers I've found are "play with priority!" which is NOT the issue nor the answer OR "it has to me alpha test/you have to adjust threshold!" which..........absolutely defeats the purpose since you can't see through that. it becomes fully opaque that way?????????????? not at all TRANSPARENT???????? /who gives these sorts of answers sob/, Is there any way to solve this? or is it just another one of imvu's "we know; we won't ever solve it despite all reassurances" moments? Really hoping someone can help a desperate soul out. Thanks & here's pics for visual example:
not double sided:
double sided (second in a different room so you can see better how utterly scuffed it is):
0 Votes
12 Comments
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “Drosselmeyer” on July 26, 2022.
[Archived]You are 100% correct and most modern game engines do this, but for transparency this is (can be) an expensive and non-performant calculation and this is the push back I am getting :/ I'll keep pushing though.
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 26, 2022.
[Archived]Ideally in a perfect Game Engine (world)... The engine could calculate "distance" between objects and the camera. Have the highest priority composite blended materials given to the closest to the camera. Sounds simple but the calculations there my be unachievable, while proficient for this application :/
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “Drosselmeyer” on July 26, 2022.
[Archived]@Yuuasa I think I can help you out here if you are the mesher of the lantern. As has been mentioned you can solve the transparency sorting issue of your product using the 'Transparency Priority' but the mesh will need to be built with 'inner' geometry and 'outer' geometry, each with its own material. It can be a single mesh or two separate meshes and use the same textures, but they must have a different material assigned to each. The material assigned to the 'inner' geometry can have the 'Transparency Priority' left at the default of '0'. The material assigned to the 'outer' geometry should then have the 'Transparency Priority' set to '1' (or higher). What this does for this product is force the materials set to 'Composite Blend' to sort based on the 'Transparency Priority' from lowest to highest. Lower values will draw before higher values. Using 'Double Sided' and 'Composite Blend' will always be problematic because it is a single material and the renderer does not know the order in which to render individual the individual faces. This is the case with the Classic Client, even though Classic does it a bit better.
The issue of various products (furniture, rooms, etc.) with materials using Composite Blend sorting correctly cannot be addressed with 'Priority'. This is because 'Priority' only affects the materials with a single product. I have been told that the default sorting of meshes with 'Composite Blend' is done be bounding volume of the mesh assigned the material. The time this becomes an issue is when you have smaller transparent object (such as your lantern) within a large transparent (such as the clouds in the room @LestatDeLioncourt provided above, 58106903. How to manage transparency sorting between multiple products is a topic for a larger discussion :D
Transparency sorting is an issue I have been bringing up with our engineering team and will continue to do so. I am also trying to gain a better understanding how it is intended to work in our engine and if it really working as intended.
I hope this helps!
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 25, 2022.
[Archived]Ps> I have not yet tested Priority between two mesh within the same product. Input would be appreciated.
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Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 25, 2022.
[Archived]Yes, agreed with all.
Info for those reading... The Priority only works within one project and not between multiple products.
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “jazzKat” on July 25, 2022.
[Archived]Yes, that's why the suggested fixes don't work; it's not the texture that's the issue, it's the multiple layers of transparency the renderer has to contend with when looking through the object. That's why none of the answers were pertinent to your situation while being correct about the core problem overall.
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “Yuuasa” on July 25, 2022.
[Archived]@Jazzkat: the aforementioned tricks don't work because the piece glitching is 1 single texture. there's only 1 texture with any blending on the item. you can't use priority as a work around when it's just 1 texture fighting it's opposite side. (From all the testing I've tried with multiple items anyways + theoretically sound rip.) thanks for the reply
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “Yuuasa” on July 25, 2022.
[Archived]Thanks for the reply Lestat! It certainly does seem to be more glitchy in rooms with blending (the 3rd picture for instance was in a room with curtains that use composite blending.) Guess I will just have to stick to making a one sided version for beta and a double for classic while we wait for IMVU to solve this particular issue lol. Thanks for your help!
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 24, 2022.
[Archived]Dern, I wish we could edit...
"try this Cylinder in a *Room* by an awesome creator Pharmacist. The Room is PID 58106903"
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 24, 2022.
[Archived]I was easily able to reproduce this issue. When PID 60346388; Test Cylinder, comes out of Peer Review... Place this in a room with Composite Blending Background items or some with different lighting (New Platforms or Studio). For one example, try this Cylinder in a by awesome creator Pharmacist. The Room is PID 58106903.
After in a new platform, Spin the camera around and look away from the Building, through the Cylinder. Weird, huh?
I am sure awesome staff like @Drosselmeyer would love to play with this a bit... :D
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “LestatDeLioncourt” on July 24, 2022.
[Archived]Hey @Yuuasa I know staff are very interested in getting things like this fixed. I know they have made many repairs to the Studio for similar issues. In efforts to gather information and if you feel comfortable...
Save your project as it is and Zip the assets folder. Send the ZIP file to studiobeta@imvu.com with explanation of what rooms (PIDs) make the issue show more than others, etc.
Helping getting a fix for issues like this is important to the whole community.
0 Votes
Community posted about 2 months ago Admin
Posted by “jazzKat” on July 24, 2022.
[Archived]Those answers are correct as they all relate to the same core issue at hand no matter the object, transparent surfaces fighting for precedence. Unfortunately the fixes suggested are not universally applicable. In your situation where you're looking directly through layers of transparency none of them will really solve the problem. And yes, this is one of those situations where we have to wait for IMVU to resolve this tricky issue (happens in classic as well but isn't as noticeable due to the different game engine).
0 Votes